So, the reason why this battle is so important is because the Temple had been desecrated by Antiochus Epiphanesit wasnt Antiochus, was it? I dont say, I got up this morning and wrapped my clothes around me.. Stephen De Young from Lafayette, Louisiana. Stephen: Yes. Stephen: Who get what St. Matthew is doing here, and not only do they get what St. Matthew is doing here, but they talk about this in terms of atonement. Fr. Fr. Fr. Now, most people, when they think of atonement in the New Testament, if I came to someone just at random and said, Hey, where would I go in the New Testament to read about atonement? they would probably not immediately say 1 John. Stephen: Right, they have to be GOAT goats. Stephens historical research dismantled beliefs that I held in common with thousands of other modern Christians about the Bible and its teachings. Andrew: Yeah Which thats not in there, right? I mean, people debate exactly how the blood dealt with the taint, like: Did it absorb it? Stephen De Young inquires into what they reveal about the nature of Christ and His creation. Stephen: Right, thats not actually in there, no. Andrew: Yeah, because doesnt the name literally mean have something to do with goats? We read everything, but cant respond to everythingyou send so much!we do save what you send for possible use in future episodes. So its just these common things that they had in the camp, but then theyre taken and theyre consecrated and theyre set aside by being sprinkled with blood. Stephen: The corruption of the earth, of the whole world. March 12, 2021 Stephen: [Laughter] So, yeah, how granular do I want to go? Fr. 41 min; APR 10, 2023; Revelation 11:4-19 They have to be the greatest goats of all time. They think that sins are put on animals and then the animals sacrificed to Godthat never happens in the Scripture anywhere. They are teaching you and giving you the proclamation of Christ. Maybe he was So thats that pro-devil propaganda stuff again. Christ is both goats. All right, well, lets just kind of mop up now. He also discusses Chapter 10 in its entirety. Right. Sometimes, yeah, thats interpreted Anytime someone puts their hands on an animal, thats interpreted as meaning that theyre putting sins on it. Amen. Which is kind of a weird way to end the gospel. Andrew: Yes. Fr. Its really cool. 190 Court St, Charleston, WV 25301 | Phone: 304-346-0106 | Email: office@stgeorgecharleston.org. Andrew: I suspectyeah, thats right. Fr. Andrew: Yeah, where that stuff is depicted as being good, like This spirit came and gave us this wonderful, beautiful knowledge! And the Bible is saying, No! Stephen De Young and Fr. Fr. They are not sitting down and having hors doeuvres with Azazel. And when we were talking about this, you mentioned that, in terms of the actual construction of the language there, its a parallel construction, that Yahweh and Azazel are being used in parallel. It is good. The ark of the covenant is like a footstool, so theres a throne involved there, and were thinking of atonement as at-one-ment and peace and mercy. So you come up with this mercy-seat thing. Fr. Stephen: And its not just sort of chaos in the sense of disorder. Okay, perfect example; this is probably the classic example: Matthew 27:25, where the people say in response to Pilate, His blood be upon us and upon our children. Now, given everything we just said about the blood of the goat, and given everything you should know if youre a Christian about what the blood of Christ does, if his blood is upon you, thats actually good. Andrew: Yeah, I know. So whats important here is just we need this blood from this goat, from this pure and blameless goat. Stephen: Everyone loves to read Leviticus. Andrew: Yeah, so he goes in, and he doesnt see an idol in there, and hes like: Well, what the heck? [Laughter] He actually busts his way into the holy of holies, so the Temple has to be reconsecrated. Fr. Fr. Andrew: I mean, I love that word. So this sort of has positive connotations. God Is a Man of War Stephen: Right, and taken outside the camp. So atonement is here to stay. Photius: No, they dont. Fr. Stephen: and now Im going to take away your KJV., Fr. That is not a false etymology, although usually etymologies that go like that are; theyre just nonsense. Thank you. we ourselves heard this very voice carried from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain (2 Peter 1:16-18). Stephen: You mean butterflies arent curdled dairy products? Andrew: Did you have a second question? Just as St. Peter had, St. Paul saw the light of Gods glory, and heard a voice from heaven. Andrew: Now everyones going to want to read it! Dr. Stephen De Young is Pastor of Archangel Gabriel Orthodox Church in Lafayette, Louisiana. Fr. Fr. Stephen: The high priest would place his hands on the goat, on its head, to designate it for this purpose, and he would What is says is he would recite the sins of Israel. Instead of avoiding or invalidating problem passages out of discomfort, Fr. The reality is more like what we were talking about tonight that we see unfold in the Scriptures with atonement and everything else, that there are these cosmic realities of spiritual warfare, of Christ defeating the powers of evil, of Christ setting us free and purifying us, making us holy and setting us apart and bringing us into his kingdom; that are cosmic realities that each of us has been given the gift of being able to participate in, in time. Stephen: Right, but what happens is, in sort of the symbolic mindhi, Jonathanof the Jewish people, sheep and lambs become associated with Passover. He is the pastor of Archangel Gabriel Orthodox Church (Antiochian) in Lafayette, Louisiana, and holds a PhD in Biblical Studies from Amridge University. [Laughter] But theres literally a text variant there. Stephen: Maybe it was once used to cover something. And so then, logically enough, when you find this in its noun formthese same roots are used for both verbs and nouns and also for adjectiveswhen its a noun it means a cover or a covering. Dr. Stephen De Young is Pastor of Archangel Gabriel Orthodox Church in Lafayette, Louisiana. You wouldnt like it. Thats why this is the day when everything has to be purified. Fr. Fr. Theres not enough books in the world. So theyre choosing how to describe things and what details to include in order to convey this. Stephen: Theres a tendencyand this is not an indictment of anybody, because, I mean, Ive heard scholars whom I greatly respect publicly talk about, when theyre talking about sacrifices in the Old Testament, say, Oh, yeah, the priest would put the sins on the animal and then kill it, and Im like thats its just not there! Its never going to catch on. I appreciate it. Not machines taking over and acquiring agency, and not machines evolving their own intentionality, but human beings creating a world customized for the flourishing of machines? It has become fashionable within American Eastern Orthodox convert culture to deny that the Orthodox believe in substitutionary atonement. ", Nephilim: The Children of Lilith. And that is so so heart-rendingly beautiful. All right. Stephen De Young discusses verses 19 and 20 of Galatians, Chapter 3. Stephen: In any way. Fr. Fr. Indeed, under the Law, almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. That last part, of course, often gets quoted out of context. Fr. Fr. Andrew: Okay, but havent I heard that the goat actually got throne off a cliff? The A-Team. So the death of the goat for Yahweh has no theological meaning, because it goes unmentioned. Fr. This is a giant exercise of throwing the baby out with the bathwater combined with an historical amnesia propagated by lazy anti-intellectualism. Fr. But the problemand we already talked about this a bit with Fr. Its just a practical thing. Fr. 9781944967550. by Stephen De Young. Stephen: The goat who exists or the goat who creates Yeah. The idea Theres a presupposition there that its somehow mechanical, that God saving us is like an elaborate Rube Goldberg machine in an OK Go video or something, where he puts things in motion and at the end somebody gets saved. Now the thing that has been done in part is now being done totally in full. The Lord of Spirits | Ancient Faith Ministries I mean, is is a good goat and a bad goat? Hence, the emergence of Rabbinic Judaism. Dan: Okay. Fr. C. M. Furey et al (Berlin/Boston: Walter de Gruyter, 2021), 909913. Stephen: Weve talked about that theres kind of an anti-theosis that happens. Fr. Two ancient sites, the Pergamon Altar in Berlin, as well as Rujum el-Hiri in the Golan Heights in Israel, will be included to demonstrate the possibility that these fallen ones may be loosed upon mankind during the time of the Time of Jacobs Trouble on earth. So weve got: I go out to my sheep. So why isnt this more widely understood? Fr. This is going to be the Person who does this eschatological Day of Atonement. Stephen De Young discusses the first three verses of Revelation, Chapter 11. Fr. Im like, why dont we start with: What does the Bible say? Fr. Richard Rohlin? Andrew Stephen Damick and Ancient Faith Radio, Dr. Jeannie Constantinou and Ancient Faith Radio, Fr. Fr. I liked the book, and I am so grateful for the discussions it has spawned within my own Orthodox congregation concerning the role of historical scholarship in interpreting Scripture. The definition is not as simple as it may seem, since some may employ it metaphorically such as referring to a giant of industry. Stephen: And the next verse in 1 John, verse 13, says that the reason he killed Abel is that Abels works were good and Cains works were evil. Welcome to The Lord of Spirits podcast. And St. John picks up pieces of this verse; elements of this idea form part of the structure of the book of 1 John. Fr. Defining terms at the outset is key to any cogent consideration and yet, many people dive into such discussions midstream, in a manner of speaking, by discussing "giants" without defining that about which they are speaking. And now were going to turn towards the New Testament. How does that begin? That might sound familiar to some folks who have read the book of Revelation, because this is exactly what happens to the dragon: hes seized by an angel, hes bound, hes thrown into a pit, hes kept there, and then on the last day hes released briefly and then thrown into the lake of fire. It not only leaves that reside and that taint within us, but within the people around us and in the actual, physical creation itself. Stephen: Yes, involving metallurgy for weapons of war and those kind of things. Andrew: Yeah, it was created for English Bibles to translate a couple of words, one from Hebrew, one from Greek. Andrew: Cool. About Fr. The answer is that they had to invent a new religion. Stephen: Right, hes clarifying. 13-26. Review of Richard B. Sorensens paper Was Hams Wife of the Nephilim?, Partial review of Marco Romano and Marco Avanzinis The skeletons of Cyclops and Lestrigons by Ken Ammi, The Nephilim and Rephaim: Satans Seed from Creation and Emergence in the Great Tribulation, Exegetical Discord in Genesis 6.1-4 Hermeneutics: Etiology of Evil Obscured, Open Review of the Center for Rational Theologys Abarim Publications on Nephilim and Giants in the Bible, by Ken Ammi, Response to Richard Sorensens review of my paper Review of Richard B. Sorensens paper, Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic?, Angels in the Targums, An Examination of Angels, Demons, and Giants in the Pentateuch Targums, How Nephilim Absconded from the Tanakh and Invaded Folkloric Territory, A review of Adrienne Mayor's paper "Giants in Ancient Warfare" by Ken Ammi, When Gods Roamed the Earth: Thematic Parallels to Gen. 6:1-4 from the Ancient Near East, Review of Richard B. Sorensens paper, Were the Nephilim Genetically Psychopathic?, The Council of the Titans: The Old Greek Gods Among the Amorites, "The Giant in a Thousand Years: Tracing Narratives of Gigantism in the Hebrew Bible and Beyond," in Goff, Stuckenbruck, and Morano (eds. Fr. Fr. Fr. Andrew: Thats fine. Andrew: Yeah, the GOATiest. Fr. This is just in Hebrew, especially, the word that means what it says; it means cover. And the Greek word thats being used is being used to pick up that meaning within a ritual context. The Whole Counsel of God: Galatians, 3:19-20. Fr. Stephen: Right, we have to have it perfect, because hes going to appear, and if he appears and its imperfect, then this is going to get bad for us, for Israel. You take it back.. They meant, at the time, was putting man and God together at one. That was the intention. Andrew: [Laughter] Nothing against you, kefir-drinkers. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown" (Genesis 6:1-4)-period (keep the "reliably" qualifier in mind). Stephen: Right, that was later. Fr. Well, for first-century Judeans, that is the place of the Battle of Emmaus, and that is related to the Maccabees. Fr. And Yahoel, the Yaho- is Yahweh. Stephen: When the subject of atonement comes up in most Western theological circles, this is where they go, is to Isaiah, specifically Isaiah 53:4-5, which has those famous lines about he was wounded by our transgressions; by his stripes we are healed, all of that language. Wright (Protestant) and Brant Pitre (Catholic) and others should give the Orthodox pause before too quickly assuming these types of historical considerations automatically vindicate the claims of Eastern Orthodox ecclesiology. So the goat for Yahweh has to be perfect, blameless, without blemish, pure, no broken bones. Stephen dismantles, and one very dear to my heart. And so, start with a verse near and dear to my heart, because I spent a chunk of my life with it, and thats 1 John 2:2. Stephen: And this is why we eat ceremonial cakes on Meatfare Sunday. Andrew: Yeah, probably. [Laughter], So, right, it has to do with when the ritual is described in Leviticus 16I know everyone knew that off the top of their heads, Fr. Copyright 2005-2023 Ancient Faith Ministries, Inc.All Rights Reserved. Andrew: Yeah, and if you look at Leviticus I mean, you dont have to read the whole book of Leviticus, but if you look at Leviticus 16, which is the chapter that has this ritual in it, you can just read it, and it shows Im looking at it right now, and it says: Aaron must then present the goat which has been designated by lot for the Lord, and he is to make it a sin-offering, but the goat which has been designated by lot for Azazel is to be still alive. Then later on it makes the reference to him putting his hands on the goat for Azazel and sends it out, but theres not unless Im missing it, it doesnt actually say anything about putting his hands on the other goat. Athanasius the Great, St. Athanasius of Alexandriain his work, On the Incarnation. So hes using atonement in this biblical sense weve been talking about, of purification, but Christ does it by living it. You guys are all asking the wrong questions! So, Fr. Andrew: Right, right. So all of this is being done on this day because of his appearance. Andrew: That would be a long, long list. Fr. Mike Schmitz), The Catechism in a Year (with Fr. Fr. Fr. Dont the daily offerings cover it? And I looked this up: what is the earliest use of this word? Fr. Stephen is also the host of the Whole Counsel of God podcast from Ancient Faith and author of the Whole Counsel Blog. Fr. Stephen De Young concludes the discussion of Revelation, Chapter 11. What is being atoned for? So at the beginning thats Eden or paradise, but then everything outside of it, in comparison. I have two good friends who left the Orthodox church and now refer me to the Old Testament to clinch some version of the following argument: See, substitutionary atonement is real, so the Orthodox are actually heterodox when they deny this. Well folks, the Orthodox Church does teach substitutionary atonement, and if you dont believe me, read chapter 7 of The Religion of the Apostles. If it read that way, then youre asking the natural question, which is what mediates between? With this book, Fr. Stephen: And the pivot-point, when we go from the end of St. Lukes gospel to the beginning of Acts, is the story he tells twice, and thats Christs ascension into heaven, which he tells at the end of his gospel, and then again at the beginning of Acts he narrates Christs ascension again. For those of you who know what that is, you know who you are. So some people will try to will want to translate Azazel, instead of seeing it as a name, as a proper name, will want to translate it as something like the goat who goes away. This is where scapegoat comes from, because scape- like escape. Escape is go away: the goat that goes away. Fr. Stephen: And then as Hebrews again makes plain in Hebrews 11-12, Christ dies outside the camp. Fr. Fr. But firstand this is where the English language nerd in me comes leaping outlets talk about this English word, atonement. Okay, so, Fr. Fr. Instagram, RSS & iTunes Fr. And in a ritual, if something is not ritualized, when you have a detailed ritual, and it says, Before the ritual, wash your hands, for example, and it doesnt say, Heres the prayer when you wash your hands, that means the hand-washing isnt ritualized, and it means it doesnt mean anything. Fr. Andrew: [Dramatic groan] Brutal! And so when the lots are cast, one of these two goats is designated as the goat for Yahweh, and the other goat is designated as the goat for Azazel. Stephen: Right, its a practicality. I dont know. He says they put a reed in his hand; its the exact same word for reed. And then they took the reed from him and struck him with it. Fr. Stephen: That would be like an inception; yeah, that might be good. Stephen: Actually, it was sprinkled with the finger, so the high priest would have a bowl in which the blood was collected, and he smears it with his finger on pretty much everything but the ark. Fr. Okay, so, but there was something else also, a connection from John 17. Andrew: Yeah, which were actually about to show you how its the opposite. Fr. Hes coming; we have to get ready. Andrew Stephen Damick, Fr. So, Dan, are you there? 1 John 2:1 talks about Christ as the high priest who intercedes in prayer, and then 2:2 says that Christ is the atonement, not only for our sins but also for the whole world. The Religion of the Apostles: Orthodox Christianity in the First [Laughter]. Stephen: [Laughter] Uh-oh! Stephen: When a pe gets doubled, it gets pronounced like a P instead of an F. Thats why its usually written with two Ps. Fr Stephen explains it a way that finally makes sense. Fr. Were talking about atonement, and weve just taken a really whirlwind trip through the New Testament, just, I dont know, astonishingly beautiful stuff, looking at how Christ is both goats in the Day of Atonement ritual. Thats what he named himself, and he actually went into the Temple in Jerusalem and sacrificed pigs on the altar to Zeus. Thats for all of my Southern friends out there. Fr. Stephen De Young is an Orthodox priest. Andrew: Yeah, like the altar has be reconciled to God? But its in Leviticus 16, and the purpose of it We often think of it in terms of: Well, this is atoning for people or Israel and the bad stuff they did, but the ritual is explicitly stated to be atoning for the altar of incense, atoning for the ark of the covenant, atoning for the space within the tabernacle. Stephen: So both of them have to be perfect and unblemished, because theyre going to be used for two different purposes, but which one is used for which purpose is decided by lot. So that was kind of over-translated. Stephen: Ruined, yeah. . Fr. Fr. I have all these details from the Day of Atonement ritual, and Im just going to ascribe that to whats happening with Christ. I mean, that is just an overarching commandment of the whole Scripture: no idolatry, ever. So theres a whole bunch of things like that, where weve picked it up and we assume its there in the text, and it actually isnt when you go check. The primary focus in this essay will be on The most significant biblical passage for the fallen angels tradition . Special request. Fr. Stephen: Right, so as I mentioned, all of our earliest sort of interpreters within the Jewish world who talk about Azazel have him as this being, this actual demonic being, and the most prominent places where hes discussed in terms of what Second Temple literature are focusing on are 1 Enoch, whats called 2 Enoch or Slavonic Enoch, and the Apocalypse of Abraham. Its not about some abstract concept or mechanism of salvation; its about the ritual that everyone that the people receiving this Gospel would have known, or, if they were coming in from the nations, they would have been told about this: it was part of their inheritance now, because theyre becoming part of Israel. So I mention all that because, as we read Scripture more and as we live the Christian life more, if we understand what it is that Christ is doing and how the Scripture tells us what hes doing, then that gives meaning to so much of our lives. Stephen: Doesnt everyone? Ive got all these sheep. Luke uses the Day of Atonement imagery to describe Christ as being the goat that is sent to Yahweh. So cool! Andrew: All right. Andrew: Right! In addition to chapters on the Trinity and atonement, the book features sections on the powers of the spiritual world, the saints, creation, Israel, and the law of God. Fr. Fr. Copyright 2005-2023 Ancient Faith Ministries, Inc.All Rights Reserved. Its also the Roman soldiers who are doing these Day of Atonement things in St. Matthews gospel. Stephen: like Brass Against and Cybertronic Spree, we refer to cover bands as atonement bands.. Andrew Stephen Damick: Thank you, Voice of Steve! Stephen: Im Um, actually"ing you in real time. So Luke 24, you get Christ on the road to Emmaus. The answer, according to Fr. Stephen: Were going to talk about this more in the second half, but Azazel, this spirit, is seen as sort of the source of sin and corruption that has come into the camp, and so its basically being sent back to it. Photius: Oh, man! Email Newsletter, Terms of Use Privacy Policy Permissions Content Disclaimer. Fr. He is also the host of the Whole Counsel of God podcast from Ancient Faith and author of the Whole Counsel Blog, as well as co-host of the Lord of Spirits podcast. Stephen: And finally, be sure to go to ancientfaith.com/support and help make sure we and lots of other AFR podcasters stay on the air. How the Devil Got His Hooves and Horns: The Origin of the Motif, "The Embarrassing and Alluring Biblical Giant," online at Bible and Interpretation (2 December 2015). What do you do with it? Fr. Andrew: Yeah, theres this veiling that happens. Stephen: Yeah, youre rubbing it into a bunch of people. I will not. Stephen: the altar, the ark of the covenant, the other fixtures of the tabernacle in order to purify them, in order to remove that taint thats been left there, thats gathered there because of the sins of the people, because of the sins of the community over the course of the year, to purify it again. Andrew: I feel like that could be on a t-shirt. the notoriously difficult Gen. 6:1-4 (Stuckenbruck 355). Stephen: Yeah! Well, weve looked at this one particular ritual, and now we know what it does, and it does the same thing in us, for us, around us, throughout the whole cosmos. So, yeah, but that understanding of it is responsible for a lot of Western Christianity. And whats fun about it is it actually is Sometimes it gets explained as at-one-ment, and that is correct! At first, it appears the book will address these questions, for Fr. But, before we get there, a couple of things we have to say at the very outset: All references to the atonement in the New Testament are explicitly about the Day of Atonement ritual. Is atonement purely theoretical? We cannot really begin considering "giants" unless and until we define that vague, genetic, subjective term (and I can think of 5-6 definitions). Im just going to say that at the outset. Stephen De Young wraps up Chapter 5 of Romans. They are not just a narrative; theyre narrative theology. Fr. Could that be the real AI apocalypse that we should be worried about? Stephen: And all the Ethiopians will rejoice because theyre like: [Whispered] Weve got it!. There is this battle thats fought. Stephen, where is that word from? Stephen can write a follow-up book to help us connect these dots. One of them Im going to sacrifice, so that one we go and we lay hands on it to say: This is the sheep that were going to offer to God. And theres the figure of the Angel of the Lord as the one whos going to do this; hes going to be the high priest.

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